Curse

Mr Pink57 · Oct 06, 2008, 01:54 AM // 01:54

To start off I am a main character gon and use it for gvg use vs most other professions (I flag sometimes).

However what I have noticed lately is the gon is slowly being removed for dual ranger setups and I can see why; better split ability and condition spreading. They also seem to provide a faster spike with the new Expert's Dexterity. The ranger has always been an amazing toolbox when it comes to GvG use, but the gon has always hit harder in the 8v8 pre IA days and when VoD came up.

I have seen dual DA teams get raped by dual ranger teams as of late (watch: pd vs DM).

If gvg continues to go the way it is going what do you think will happen to the gon?

EDIT: I may add more to this later.

pink

AnonTerror · Oct 06, 2008, 02:52 AM // 02:52

Gons still very viable everywhere besides top 100 or so. They are very effective still and can be played by brainless people (omegawtf spike, ultility that requires zero skill).

-Pluto- · Oct 06, 2008, 03:13 AM // 03:13

why play a brainless paragon build when you can play an equally brainless, far more degenerate expert's dexterity build instead, that also gets stronger in the hands of a skilled player and has far more flexibility?

lutz · Oct 06, 2008, 04:15 AM // 04:15

The Expert's Dexterity just overpowers the Paragon. Adding more utility, more damage, unkitable attacks, higher armor (sort of), equal attack speeds and more/better interrupts, it just makes the Paragon less desirable.

Zuranthium · Oct 06, 2008, 09:50 AM // 09:50

Paragons are the most poorly designed class. No tears here.

~Z

Asplode · Oct 06, 2008, 10:32 AM // 10:32

It's easy to say that primary paras, dervs, assassins and necros have been wiped from the game in the path to honorable game balance.

However, it's really a fault of the class concept. It either wasn't designed for gvg, or was designed very poorly for gvg.

Either way, it's probably best to keep them out until they're fixed... which unfortunately will be never. Oh well.

The more the administration attempts to exercise control over what gvg looks like, the more they'll choke variety out of the game.

...but I suppose in many peoples' eyes it's the lesser of two evils.

Byron · Oct 06, 2008, 06:15 PM // 18:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Pluto-

why play a brainless paragon build when you can play an equally brainless, far more degenerate expert's dexterity build instead, that also gets stronger in the hands of a skilled player and has far more flexibility?

quoted for quoting

Neo-LD · Oct 06, 2008, 08:51 PM // 20:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Pluto-

why play a brainless paragon build when you can play an equally brainless, far more degenerate expert's dexterity build instead, that also gets stronger in the hands of a skilled player and has far more flexibility?

Thats interesting, considering that a degenerate build is by definition an inflexible one-trick-pony that an idiot can play just as well as a skilled player.

Reverend Dr · Oct 07, 2008, 02:39 AM // 02:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Thats interesting, considering that a degenerate build is by definition an inflexible one-trick-pony that an idiot can play just as well as a skilled player.

There is no build in the game that an idiot can play just as well as a skilled player.

The degenerate builds come when the effectiveness of the build is only slightly increased by it being in the hands of a good player.

Also, any build with savage and distracting shot is going to be more powerful in the hands of a skilled player than an idiot.

lustnlood · Oct 07, 2008, 07:35 AM // 07:35

i dont get why ppl think that a para is useless ... i mean its true a ranger can be quite a handful to deal with but a good plyer can easily take care of the one-trick-pony.

have yu seen the latest TPiY! para bar.. i have tried it in gvg and it seemed to hold on quite well and lso on occasion saved a team due to the extra pip of energy and the more frequent use of mirror of disenchant and cry of frustration.

this is the bar in case you are interested.

http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:P/Me_Power_Paragon

N.B. The bar is most effectively layed by ppl who actually know what they are doing since the ppl have to force the opposition into taking them head on in a 8v8 position.

PyrAnkh · Oct 07, 2008, 07:54 AM // 07:54

You know, that extra pip of energy gives your team 1 energy per usage...if that saves you then you are doing something wrong.

lustnlood · Oct 07, 2008, 08:03 AM // 08:03

ou dont get it do yu?

its nt the pip that saves you ... its the dfact that it gives extra energy and when forcing a split team into a 8v8 condition the extra pip does help you... you really need to stop thinking so uselessly .... if it werrent of use why would it be there? jesus man soometimes i think ppl are tarded

newbie_of_doom · Oct 07, 2008, 09:31 AM // 09:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Paragons are the most poorly designed class. No tears here.

~Z

That indeed, can't we just delete paras from the game (still as a secondary for epic petmasters ofc)??¿¿

Divinus Stella · Oct 07, 2008, 10:13 AM // 10:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by lustnlood

ou dont get it do yu?

its nt the pip that saves you ... its the dfact that it gives extra energy and when forcing a split team into a 8v8 condition the extra pip does help you... you really need to stop thinking so uselessly .... if it werrent of use why would it be there? jesus man soometimes i think ppl are tarded

best post ever.

PyrAnkh · Oct 07, 2008, 11:33 AM // 11:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by lustnlood

ou dont get it do yu?

its nt the pip that saves you ... its the dfact that it gives extra energy and when forcing a split team into a 8v8 condition the extra pip does help you... you really need to stop thinking so uselessly .... if it werrent of use why would it be there? jesus man soometimes i think ppl are tarded

I can do nothing but bow to this man's superior knowledge of gvg and english.
My deepest apologies for messing up so badly.

AnonTerror · Oct 07, 2008, 01:24 PM // 13:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Also, any build with savage and distracting shot is going to be more powerful in the hands of a skilled player than an idiot.

This much is true, I still say paragons are viable because bad players with dshot/savage are absolutely awful. I'd trust them to remove an Aegis via Mirror rather than interrupting it.

Massive Impulsa · Oct 07, 2008, 01:59 PM // 13:59

Well tbh, they should get back SoP and Balad, para... When they nerfed that guy too and removes Watch Yourself + Shields Upp .. Then it was just bye bye to the Paras.. altough im not a fan of Spikke defensive builds i really liked the Paragon role, whit thoose skills.. Altough nerfed, no more VoD, etc makes em less viable.. Altough they still work decent but Good Ranger > Great Para

-Pluto- · Oct 07, 2008, 02:07 PM // 14:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Thats interesting, considering that a degenerate build is by definition an inflexible one-trick-pony that an idiot can play just as well as a skilled player.

Like Reverend said, any build can be played better by a better player, in general. My main point though was that you can put Margrid the Sly on that Expert's Dexterity bar and have her just spam the entire bar over and over again and still be ridiculously effective, probably more so than a paragon. The fact that it's only better if you have a player that can also play the game? That just makes it all the more degenerate in my eyes. It'd be like if you made Eviscerate do +60 damage. Sure, a good warrior is going to get more kills off it than a bad warrior. That doesn't make it okay.

I Angra I · Oct 07, 2008, 04:12 PM // 16:12

Like other people said, paragons will come back more once expert's dexterity is gone. It's just way too (overly) powerful of a template to be worth taking anything else right now for a midline damage role.

Neo-LD · Oct 07, 2008, 07:09 PM // 19:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

There is no build in the game that an idiot can play just as well as a skilled player.

The degenerate builds come when the effectiveness of the build is only slightly increased by it being in the hands of a good player.

My apologies for allowing ambiguity between 'no difference' and 'almost no difference.' Degeneracy includes instances where there is nearly no difference between the effectiveness of a skilled player and an idiot. This definition includes paragons, but not rangers (even experts rangers). You even identified the reason yourself: savage and distracting shot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Pluto-

My main point though was that you can put Margrid the Sly on that Expert's Dexterity bar and have her just spam the entire bar over and over again and still be ridiculously effective, probably more so than a paragon. The fact that it's only better if you have a player that can also play the game? That just makes it all the more degenerate in my eyes. It'd be like if you made Eviscerate do +60 damage. Sure, a good warrior is going to get more kills off it than a bad warrior. That doesn't make it okay.

You are confused about the difference between degeneracy and imbalance. Neither are acceptable, but they are two distinct things. I'm really just nitpicking definitions here, but clarity of thought is important for these kinds of discussions, and in general.